Georgia Sparling
A word before we begin: The book we're discussing today centers on a teen suicide. If you need to skip this episode, please do. And if you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, depression or mental illness, please get help. You can visit the Suicide Prevention Lifeline at suicidepreventionlifeline.org or call 1-800-273-8255. You may also text a crisis counselor at 741741. All of this information is in the show notes.
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This is Why We Write, a podcast of Lesley University. Every episode, we bring you conversations with authors in the Lesley community to talk about books, writing and the writing life. We're wrapping up season three of the podcast today with young adult author Cameron Kelly Rosenblum. Cameron holds a Master’s in Education from Lesley, is a former teacher, and a current elementary school librarian who lives in Maine. She's also the author of The Stepping Off Place, a book about friendship, mental illness, love, grief and growing up. Cameron, welcome to Why We Write.
Cameron Kelly Rosenblum
Thank you so much. Really excited to be here. Yeah.
Georgia
I'm so excited to talk about this book with you. But before we do that, I'd love to talk a little bit about your journey from teaching to becoming an author. Like, how did that happen?
Cameron
Yeah, well, so I've always been really interested in creative writing. And I grew up in the 80s, so I have a pile of notebooks and journals from those growing up years. I just was constantly writing my story all the time. And then I went to undergrad at Kenyon College in Ohio. It's a great school for literature and writing. But strangely, in the 80s, they did not have a creative writing track or they didn't really have anything that would prepare you to graduate and go into writing.
So I was kind of floundering near graduation, and the sculpture professor's wife told me-- she was teaching, she had gone to Teachers College, and wound up in this rural school in Ohio. And long story short, I volunteered in first grade, and then I got the teaching bug. And I was like, "Oh, this is perfect," because teachers work mostly in the school year, and then they have summers when I can just start writing my novels and figure that out, but at least I'll have a job.
So, I ended up finding Lesley and the Creative Arts and Learning program, which was so perfect for me. And so I really loved, I loved teaching writing. So then when I left Lesley, I got my first teaching job in Connecticut, and I was really focused. I kind of became an expert in the writing and language arts as a teacher, and then I started to get interested in writing for children because I was starting to get to know children really well. We moved to Maine in 1999 and married a teacher and we had a son. And while he was little, I really started trying to get published.
I joined the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators, SCBWI, and really started to get serious and I had this great fantasy all worked out [laughs]. It was for third grade, and it was like in a box in my closet, because I could not sell it. But I did make tons of friends, tons of connections in editing, and just with agents and editors, SCBWI is really good for that. Making friends and connections in the real publishing world.
Then I had this life event, which is where the stepping off place came from, where my close childhood friend, shockingly died by suicide right around her 40th birthday. And this is where Lesley comes in in such a cool way. So, I took a class in the Creative Arts and Learning called Arts and Society, and it was taught by this woman and she had a real interest in research around the Holocaust and Holocaust survivors, but she was also really interested in war memorials like the Vietnam Wall. And when I was going through school, it must have been right around when that was commissioned.
Anyway, so we did a lot of work around the idea of a monument as something that helps people grieve and process grief. And so I kind of took my love of writing and in that sort of blueprint in my head, and I wrote this book. So I completely fictionalized, the characters and all that. But I took the idea of this friendship and this hidden mental health problem, and this was sort of my monument to my friend. And once I started writing it, I jumped up and wrote for teens instead of, because it was just not a middle grade. It wasn't appropriate for little children.
So I made the jump to YA. And as soon as I started writing it, and showing it to editors or agents that I had met, I could feel it that it was going to be the one because there was just like, instant interest in what I was writing about and the voice and I think it just kind of helped me find the right genre for me.
Georgia
Yeah. Did you feel really comfortable, once you started writing for that age?
Cameron
I did. I think I really connected. I have really good memories. And I've heard a lot of writers talk about how, you know, like, one of my writing friends is Lynda Mullaly Hunt, who wrote Fish in a Tree and a couple of other books. But all her books are about 12-year-old girls. And she's just like, that's such a vivid time in my life. Like, she just slides right into that voice. And for me, I just have really, and they're not all good memories, but I have very vivid memories of being 17-18 years old, just like the end of high school.
And so for me, once I started writing like that, and I don't think I could pull it off if I was doing a big fantasy. I was actually like, I read John Green around the time I started writing the book, I think I read The Fault in Our Stars, and he also went to Kenyon College. He's younger than me, but he also went to Kenyon, and we had the same writing professor.So I got like, really captivated by, "Oh my gosh, wait, this is this can be YA. Like, I can write a contemporary fiction." I thought everything had to be vampires and so on. So I just kind of learned on the job.
But I come back to that classwork, because I really feel like that was my mourning. My friend's loss was shocking, of course, but also I did not learn it. You know, we didn't live in the same area anymore. And so I found out too late to go to the service and the family was devastated because it was a suicide. And so it was just really hard for me to feel like I grieved it. I just really needed to grieve that loss, and so I used the art to grieve the loss. It's kind of like, I don't know, it's just like, my creative process was so impacted by my real life. But I think that's why it came out more powerful and more true than the sort of straightforward stuff I was doing for little kids, I guess.
Georgia
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And yeah, it does feel very, very honest. I think, reading it, and I was really impressed by how you were able to capture teen voices. I couldn't go back to that age and pick it out like that. It felt very much like the conversations they would have and the, I guess, like insecurity, it's just all of that, you know, it felt very specific to that time in life.
Cameron
Yeah. And, you know, now, my daughter is actually that age. So it's great to have her around because I'm working on my second book. And she's like, "No, Mom, you can't you can't say that." [laughs] "Absolutely not. You may not say that word." So I do have a little bit of a, I get some street cred from the kids now. But yeah, I don't think teenagers have changed that much. I don't, I mean, I think all the scenery changes, but I don't think the human nature of being a teen is that different. So yeah.
Georgia
Yeah, I think human nature stays the same. [laughs] But yeah, so let's talk about the book. Would you read the opening couple of paragraphs, to kind of give people a feel for it?
Cameron
Sure. Let me just resituate myself here. So there's a little prologue right at the beginning. And it's about memories.
"I used to think our memories belong to us. Now, I don't think they're that cooperative. They interrupt when they please and leave right when you want to hold them in your hands and arrange them on a shelf. So they tell the story you think they should. They haunt you or comfort you at will. But when memories are all you have left of a person, you'll take them thin as the tail of a cloud are so thick, you're lost in them for hours. Just don't ever assume you have memories. Your memories definitely have you. In my mind's eye watch the one of my of me leaving my Schofield dinner theater job that day in August, right before the start of senior year, worrying about things that didn't matter for shit. Completely oblivious to the way my world was about to detonate. Shouldn't I want to be that version of me again? Obviously, the correct answer is yes. The weird thing is, I don't think I do."
Georgia
So I guess anybody who's been listening knows that this is a book about suicide and mental health issues. But would you say a little bit more about that what the story is about?
Cameron
The story is about a really strong friendship. And it's told from the point of view of Reid, who defines herself as a sidekick. And when she starts out this friendship with her friend Hattie, it starts out, she kind of feels like Hattie saves her a little bit. She has a brother who has severe autism, and he's kind of the focal point of the family. And because of that, she's socially awkward and a little, not confident. And then she gets swept up in this friendship and they have great fun together. Then when they move into high school, suddenly Hattie kind of turns beautiful, and all of a sudden, all her charisma is just like coming together in this perfect, sort of "it" girl. And all of a sudden, Reid is going to all the cool parties, and she's kind of got friendships with the coolest people on campus, but she always attributes it to the fact that it's because of Hattie.
So, while the story is about the loss of Hattie, that's not a spoiler, by the way, because, that's in chapter one, you know, that Hattie has been lost. And so the stepping off place, to me, is for Reid to realize, besides all the grief, she needs to sort of redefine herself. Because now she can't be a sidekick. She doesn't have anyone to play off anymore. And she's got to learn how to stand in her own light. So, a big piece of the book is about her coming to grips with the loss on a sheerly grief-level of losing someone.
Another piece of the book is her learning how to stand on her own two feet and realizing that she has a lot more going on than she thought. And then tied in there is the mystery of what really happened to Hattie. It jumps around in time, it goes back, it's got a couple of different timelines going because I knew it was important for us to really feel Reid's story, we needed to understand the friendship and the bond. And so you kind of get the, I feel like the reader being a little bit more in the know kind of can see Reid, I mean, Hattie beginning to show signs of something's wrong, but that Reid misses them. And so she has to deal with that terrible reality.
Georgia
Yeah, I was gonna comment on how it definitely feels like there's kind of two main parts to the story that are interwoven. Their friendship and then this like coming of age aspect of Reid, because it takes place mostly during the summer and Reid is by herself. And yeah, like she's forced outside of Hattie's shadow. So like, can you talk a little bit more about that? Like, do you think Reid was gonna ever be able to get out there anyway? Because there's almost this question of like, if everything had gone well, like, Hattie would have come back and Reid would have, maybe, fallen back into old pattern?. But so, is that kind of what you're eluding to in the beginning of that prologue?
Cameron
Yeah. I think Reid recognizes that it's, not that you would ever wish that this is the way she learned it, but I think, you know, she does learn that, you know, in fact, maybe Hattie was leaning on her all that time, and she just didn't recognize it because she just kind of, idolized is a little strong of a word, but just so admired her friend that I don't think she-- and that piece. So just take the suicide out for a sec and just thinking about that age, teens and adults too, but especially teens, I think they spend a lot of time looking around and comparing themselves to everyone else. And most kids will assume that they're the lesser of the people around them. Like, I think it's a really common experience for kids to look around and be like, "Oh, well, you know, this one's so much prettier than me. That one's so much smarter than me. That one's so much more handsome. This one is funnier."
And I think, at least for me, I guess I was that kid. I was that kid who was like, I was kind of always in the right parties in my head, you know, "Okay, well, these are the people I want to hang out with." But it's kind of like almost like an imposter syndrome, where it's like, "I'm only here because they haven't really noticed that I'm here yet. So, I just got to ride this out as long as I can."
But in reality, you know, I think kids can be really hard on themselves when they don't need to be so hard on themselves. And I think that was part of what I wanted Reid to realize. I was definitely a sidekick. I definitely, in my real life, I have really larger than life big sisters. And you know, now the age gap isn't anything. But when you're a little kid growing up and your sister is five years older than you and she's doing everything before you, she just like naturally going to be this larger than life person. And I had like an aha moment in my 30s when I realized I kept replicating that pattern, that friendship pattern. I kept finding people, I'm attracted to people who are big personalities, and then I kind of play the fiddle, you know, the second fiddle
And then, through all kinds of things, my son actually is like Reid's little brother, he's got profound autism. And being a parent in that situation gives you a whole new appreciation for what you're capable of. And that was another little theme in the book, I wanted to show that sometimes it's easier to do things for other people than it is to do it for yourself. But that said, it's still showing you can do it. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I don't know if I answered your question.
Georgia
Yeah, definitely. So what kind of research did you do for this book? Since I mean, it's very deep into the kind of reasons that Hattie committed suicide.
Cameron
So again, I was drawing from my own grief. So I could not believe this friend of mine, if you ever met this person, I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that this person also suffered from debilitating depression. So I took some time to research what that looks like, and what that feels like to the person inside. Because I think one of the hardest things about depression, for people who don't have depression, is trying to understand "what do you mean you can't get out of bed?" Like, it's just really hard for a well mind, to wrap their head around that unless you really have lived with someone or seen it pretty up close. So I wanted to make sure I honored and was respectful of people who do struggle with mental illness, and also respectful of the people who are doing their best but don't really know what they're doing.
And then I decided to go in with the bipolar two, which I didn't know that there's a bipolar one and bipolar two. But in fact, so bipolar one diagnosis would be really, really high manic phases where, almost bordering on delusion sometimes, and then of course, horrible, horrible depression. And the same is true of bipolar two, except for the waves are just a little bit smaller. Okay, so the person who has bipolar two probably won't have delusions of grandeur but they definitely can get in phases where they're making reckless decisions and just kind of riding all the endorphins of what, you know, they're like on a runner's high that they can't stop. So I did a lot of research on that.
And it felt so fascinating to me. And I thought, wow, that would really explain, for a character like Hattie. I mean, I have no idea if my real friend, I think she just had depression, I don't know. So I added the bipolar because also fictionalizing it further away from the real story gave me some more creative space, I think, where I didn't feel like I was trying to be responsible to that truth. Instead, I was like creating this other character with her own truth. And so I also felt like it would be really easy to miss it, because you would think that this kid was just super fun, and adventurous and daring. And then, if you never saw the downside, you wouldn't know it was there. So, in terms of character building and sort of plot building, it felt like a really great story to follow. I guess it felt like it would be really compelling fiction.
Georgia
Yeah, definitely. I definitely think it was. Suicide, when it's an adult versus a younger person, like, it looks different too, so there is that.
Cameron
Yes, there is a social contagion connected to teen suicide, which is terrifying to me. And as the writer of this, I felt like this kind of-- at first, I wasn't going to have her die by suicide. I was still going to have the whole story of Reid learning to stand on her own two feet and grieving the loss of this wonderful friend, but I was going to have it be, like, a car accident or something because I was afraid of the topic. I was like, my god, there's so much responsibility. And what I decided, somewhere along the line, was to focus on the survivor's story. And so that's why I put more of the emphasis is on Reid.
I mean, in a really early draft, it actually was gonna go back and forth between their their points of view. But that's too scary. First of all, I didn't want to go that dark and deep for too long in the book, because A, I didn't want to trigger anybody and B, I did not feel, that's not what I would want to read about. II like the hero's journey a little bit more. I didn't want to write something so dark that I wouldn't want to read it myself. And I appreciate that there are people out there who write dark, beautifully. That's just not me. Like it was hard enough to just be grieving my friend for me. I didn't want to get too dark down there.
So I think that is one of the things that makes me so happy and gratified is that the Center for Grieving Children, which is a foundation in Maine that helps teens make sense of loss and younger children too of course, but they featured the book, and they've really been promoting the book. And so that's just so gratifying, because I really feel like, of course, we, of course, we miss the people who go by suicide, but the people who are left, those are the people we have to take care of.
Georgia
Yeah, definitely. And like, as you're talking about that, I'm thinking there's, which I have not watched this, but 13 Reasons Why which, got a lot of bad press because, for those who aren't aware of it, just because it seemed to maybe be using suicide as like a tool for revenge or, kind of maybe too voyeuristic.
Cameron
Exactly.
Georgia
And this didn't do that at all.
Cameron
My agent pitched it as the anti "13 Reasons Why" because when I read the book by Jay Asher, I, this is way before my friend had died, and so I actually thought the book was great. I was like, "wow." But then when you really experience a loss like that, you're like, "hold the phone, first of all." And that was really actually where it came from. We want a reason why. It is very human to want to know, what's the reason this perfectly beautiful person has just decided life isn't worth living. There has to be something that was the reason. I mean, you know, I even started to be like, wow, I wonder, do you think somebody was like, maybe, you know, there was some man involved that was like, you know, I was like finding villains, because I could not wrap my head around this girl who I thought had everything plus doing this. And I think that, so I was like, "you know, what mental health is why. Mental illness is why. That's the reason. It doesn't fit into a nice little plot package, because that's not real."
And I do think, I'm sure Jay Asher didn't intentionally glorify it, or use it as like plot twist. And I don't think he was doing that. But I feel like, and I probably they didn't mean it to get that way on TV, but you know, when you start putting the faces on, and they're all these glamorous actors and then it was graphic. And I think the reason that they wanted it to be graphic was to be like a warning, like, don't do this. And it had the opposite effect. I know, just the teacher in me was like, "No. I cannot, I have to, no."
You have more of a responsibility to your reader than to just throw that out there and leave it there for everyone to make of it what they will. And I also think it's just an injustice. It's an injustice to people who are struggling with the fact that someone's gone is to just be like, "Oh, well, it was because of this." You know, this happened at that party and so that was it. It's not that simple. And someone has to be mentally ill to even start to integrate that kind of suicidal ideation into their world and start to really get serious about it. That's not a healthy person, mentally speaking. So that's why I wanted to bring it to light.
Georgia
Yeah, I think you did a great job of that. And I feel like this would be a great book for, I'm not a parent, but for parents, or, high school educators to read with their kids or their students.
Cameron
And that's so interesting you say that, because I've been doing a lot of, especially, you know, of course, right now, the mental health for teens is really, I mean, let's be real, for everybody, it's been a struggle. And, you know, especially for teens who don't have all the life experience to put things in perspective, really tough, the isolation.
So I have been asked to do several, now, high schools-- so the town library will put on a program that's invites the parents, the teachers, and the kids to do like a reading group. So it's almost like a book club. I've done that in a couple of schools in Connecticut, Darien and Greenwich. And up here I've done Cape Elizabeth and Falmouth, Maine, and I was talking with some people in Massachusetts, too. But it's just so powerful, especially when they get the kids on the panel. Oh, my gosh, it's the best. The kids ask the most amazing questions about this book. That has been really powerful for me to be able to hear that.
And then if you're having a conversation with parents, a lot of times, I think, as parents, we just want to assume everything is going fine and so we're afraid to ask questions. And I think one thing I've learned is that asking the question is a really good thing. It's never going to push someone into thinking that they weren't already having but it's going to make them feel safer that they are, that you're aware, and you're watching and you're caring. Which brings me to another point on these things; I always request that they bring someone in from the mental health profession so that I am not serving as the mental health expert. Because of course, obviously I've done a lot of research, but I want an expert on the panel. So those have been great. I love doing those.
Georgia
One other thing that I wanted to bring up that I noticed in the book that there was, there kind of a lot of spiritual elements in the book or maybe mystical? From the beginning, like Reid swears that she sees Hattie driving down the road, but then you find out that Hattie had already died. And then she sees and talks to Hattie a few times throughout the book. Plus, there's the Headless Horseman,
Cameron
I love that. That's my favorite factor. [laughs]
Georgia
The ghost stories are prominent. So why was that important to include in the book?
Cameron
That is a little tip of my hat to my friend because she was the kind of person who did all of the above that you just mentioned. She was the ghost story master. She was the one making me watch The Shining 12 times in a row. She loved that stuff in a very fun, silly way. So I felt like that was one way I could really bring her character to life a little bit. And then, I am not going to lie I, on whims, have gone to a couple of psychics in my day, just kind of-- I don't really 100% believe but I also don't have the courage not to believe. [laughs] I'm in the middle somewhere. So I just think that that's something that I find so fascinating.
And we don't know. You know, like, we know so many things, but we don't really know what happens after someone's gone. And so I felt like, I wanted to put that ambiguity out there for kids to think about. I love the idea that readers are like, "wait a minute, she thinks that this really happened?" All the kids, every talk I've done, a kid will say "Was that really Hattie? What was that about?" And I kind of throw it back to them, because honestly, I didn't answer that question in my head. Totally feasible that it could be Reid's imagination, but it doesn't really explain chapter one. Chapter one is kind of out there as a mystery. But all the other ones, that really could just be her imagination, because she's really deep in the grief cycle. But it's also totally conceivable that if you believe in spirits, then it's also believable that it is. So I had fun with that, I guess, as much as you can in that kind of a story.
Georgia
Yeah, definitely. I really liked that element of it.
Cameron
Oh, thank you.
Georgia
So when people finish the book, where do you want them to go next? Or what do you, how do you want them to respond?
Cameron
So the ending of the book was really interesting because I did not think that was going to be the end until I wrote it. And that's one scene in the book, that very last couple of pages that I will not spoil, that was pretty much first draft. That was like 100% my heart opening up, I could still get teary even. I've read it aloud a couple times and like starting to choke up, which is kind of embarrassing. But I didn't think until I wrote it that that was the end. And then I wrote it and I was like," No, that is it. That's the end."
And so I guess what I want readers to think after that is I want them to, first of all, just on the safety level, the awareness level, I just want their awareness of where their friends are at, to be raised. And to understand that someone can look like they have it all going on, and that's not always the whole picture. So to just be aware.
At the tail end, after the book, there's the author's note and I gave a shout out to a couple of foundations that I thought were really great for smashing the stigma.And one of them is called The Yellow Tulip Project. This is a great program where teenagers, a mom-daughter team, the daughter had lost not one but two friends to suicide, like, within a year of each other. She actually starts to have some like self-injurious behaviors and the mom, she finally cried to the mom and they were like, "we've got to do something. We're gonna take action to do something that brings hope".
They get groups of students together, kids together, and they plant these hope gardens of yellow tulips in the fall. And then in the spring, they all come up and they kind of have this like, hope party, where everyone's all excited, you know, feeling happy and feeling hopeful. And then they do a whole lot of programming around mental health awareness and stigma smashing and wellness and all that sort of thing. I'm really proud because now I'm on their advisory board. We invite everyone to open a chapter, you can do it in your yard, or you could do it at your school or you could do it at your church or whatever. Any community gardens or anything like that. So that's advocacy, I guess, is where I hope that's a step.
But in terms of specifically about Reid's character, I just want them to see that she's on a path. She's on her way. She's found herself. She's found her strength and that she's ready to start to heal and live a good life.
Georgia
Yeah. So what's next for you? You said you are working on another book.
Cameron
I am. So this book is called Sweeping Glass and it is set in a New England elite boarding school. And it involves assault, a sexual assault and it's told from multiple points of view. And like The Stepping Off Place, I chose sexual assault and consent because I wanted to go after it in what I like to think is a more nuanced, like, really getting nuanced around what's going on. You know, post "Me Too" aware world for teenagers, and why is there still so much sexual assault?
Georgia
Yeah, when will that one come out?
Cameron
That is coming out next May.
Georgia
Great. Well, thank you so much for talking to me today.
Cameron
Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. It's great.
Georgia
Yeah, and I'll include some of the resources and stuff that are in the back of the book in the show notes and can mention it here.
Cameron
Sure. That's great.
Georgia
So if people want to find you online, where can they do that?
Cameron
So I have a website, www.Cameronrosenblum.com. I'm on Instagram, @CKellyRoseBooks. I would say Instagram is probably the best place to find me.
Georgia
Okay, great. And I'll include those links in the show notes and episode page too.
Cameron
Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, you can get to everything from my website.
Georgia
Excellent. Awesome. Thank you so much.
Cameron
Alright. Well, thank you.
Georgia
Thanks for listening today. Check out our show notes for links to Cameron Kelly Rosenblum's website, social media, and of course, her book, The Stepping Off Place. I've also included mental health resources if you or someone you know is struggling. As Cameron says in her book, we need to normalize the conversation around mental illness, and destigmatize it. Her book is a great way to start getting informed. This is the end of season three of the podcast. We're taking our customary summer break. I hope you'll be doing tons of reading this summer. I know I will be and I'll be working on season four of the podcast. If you're a writer or a reader and you've got an idea for a future episode, now is the time to let me know. You can email me at news@lesley.edu and of course Lesley is spelled L-E-S-L-E-Y. Have a great summer and happy reading.
